Jay & Matt discuss their Best Movies of 2013

JAY: OK. So, last week we posted our picks for best films of 2013. What was your first impressions from my list?

MATT:  I liked some of your picks but I have to admit that I hadn't seen a few just because they're not my "cup of tea." The only one things I didn't agree with was your introduction where you said this year was a good year for movies; and the other was your pick of The World's End. I'm also beginning to question Scorcese.

JAY: You didn't think this year was great? I saw so many good movies that I didn't even put on my list, because I didn't want it to be too long. It was a fantastic year. It wasn't a great year for blockbusters, I do agree.

MATT: I just feel like I don't get a "wow" out of as many movies as I used to. Yes, the blockbusters were big let-downs but I just feel like there is material out there -- as well as writers -- that can bring some great work out. Like Wolf of Wall Street. Not a bad picture at all. But was the story really all that great!? I didn't think so.

JAY: Well, the story was pretty faithful to Jordan Belfort's memoir. So not much they can change there. I thought it was exceptional. His best movie since The Departed. Do you like Goodfellas and Casino?

MATT: Of course I like those films. Although, I have to admit that I'm not as big of an admirer of Goodfellas as everyone else seems to be. To me, I liked Casino far better.

JAY: OK. Well, I thought Wolf was akin to those two films in style and theme. DiCaprio was so good too.It really had me entertained all the way through. I loved it.

MATT: DiCaprio is always good! I really enjoyed The Great Gatsby (which deserves an honorable mention for my Best of 2013 list). But the plot of Wolf, to me, is akin to a glitzier version of Wall Street.

JAY: I think Wall Street was way more naïve then Wolf, which pulled no punches. In the real world, men like Gordon Gecko don't lose. Belfort didn't lose much of anything. That's how things are.

MATT: Maybe it's also just a testament to the sign of the times. Corruption goes more unpunished nowadays than it did back then ... at least, in the movies, anyways.

JAY: I agree.

MATT: I think Springsteen's "Wrecking Ball" album is a testament to that!

JAY: So why the hate for The World's End?

MATT: Well, there were two apocalypse-type movies out this year: World's End and This is the End -- and both had the same theme of growing up and moving on from friends and an old life(style). I wasn't crazy about This is the End either but just thought World's End was so .... corny. And not in a good way. It simply was ... not good. There were moments when the dialogue and story were making me roll my eyes. Sorry to say, but, although I like Pegg and Frost and I love Wright's Scott Pilgrim, I'm just not a fan of their films together. Although, I will say Shaun of the Dead wasn't that bad. But with World's End it's as if they wanted to make a serious film, but then decided at last minute, "Ah, fuck it. Let's just throw in some aliens.”

JAY: OK. I saw both movies as well and The World's End was my favorite of the two. It fit in perfectly with his trilogy, including Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz. And that's what makes them great. There's always a subtext or meaning. And then you get zombies, or aliens or armed villagers. They aren't just some blow-em-up, kick-ass action movie. They have heart and something to say.

MATT: I don't think the film’s message said it that well.

JAY: All of the other blockbusters that came out this year have no heart. As I get older, it’s starting to wear thin. I just want something different. That makes me think, I didn't see that coming.

MATT: Nah. I'm over that movie.

JAY: Fair enough. We agree to disagree.

MATT: I think anyone else who watches should be the judge but when I watched it, I couldn't get over how sort of lame it was. I guess I just expected more.

JAY: Yes, everyone else can watch it and see how it’s a sweet look at adulthood and the nostalgic yearning for our younger years . . . . with aliens.

MATT: What's the deal with Gravity? Is it really that good!?

JAY: Yes. I loved it. I know people don't get it. It was so beautiful.

MATT: It seems like it's a bit overrated.

JAY: And you know I can't stand Sandra Bullock.

MATT: Me too!

JAY: What makes it "overrated"? Did you see it?

MATT: Well, a lot of people are raving about it but I don't see the draw. Then again, I have to admit that I haven't seen it. Guess I'll just have to wait and see.

JAY: Well it depends on what "draws" you. For me, I really enjoy to learn about what goes into shooting a film. Cuaron is a director who I love. What he did in this movie is amazing. It’s a technical achievement. It’s a simple yet effective story. It moved me and dazzled me with how it looked on the big screen. Since you'll probably watch it on DVD, it may not have the same effect.

MATT: Well, I hope it will have the same effect or it's not a very effectual movie.

JAY: I don't agree that a movie is unsuccessful if it doesn't have the same impact on a TV screen.

MATT: I do have to admit that Before Midnight was good. A lot of talking ... but good. I always thought Linklater's "Before" films would make great plays!

JAY: Probably. I remember watching Before Sunrise with you when it came out. You remember?

MATT: Yeah.

JAY: Your dad watched some of it with us. I believe he asked us, "What is this crap?!" Ha, ha!

MATT: Ha ha ha! I think his exact quote was: "You guys watch some weird crap." I do have to say. From your list, I'm interested in now seeing The Act of Killing and I've always wanted to see 12 Years a Slave.

JAY: Well, aren't relationships born out of a lot of talking? Both of those films are very good.

MATT: Yes (relationships are born out of talking). But, when you have two little kids, such talking is less and less of an event. Let’s be realistic. I remember having those conversations with my wife when we first met and before the kids were born. And any reiteration of such talks is sort of pointless. The one scene that I enjoyed in Before Midnight was the hotel scene when they talked about his and her roles in their home life.

JAY: Yeah, I can see your point. At that point of the movie the kids were removed from the scene, so in the hotel room they are able to explore the problems in their relationship that are causing them to grow apart.

MATT: I almost didn't like the ending, and how Hawke's character tried to play it cute with Delpy. I'm glad she called him out on his bullshit. The ending -- with the looks on their faces -- gave me a very The Graduate feel.

JAY: It's purposely ambiguous. I really thought Delpy was great. She should get an Oscar nod, but that won't happen.

MATT: Yeah. It was good! You’re right. I think she should at least get an Oscar nod; maybe not a win, though. I mean, c'mon, if Jennifer Lawrence can get a nod for Silver Lining Playbook, then Delpy should get one. No offense to Jennifer Lawrence (who I love) but I felt she should not have won the Oscar compared to Marion Cotillard's role in Rust and Bone.

JAY: Yeah. And she just won the Golden Globe for Best Supporting Actress for American Hustle which should have gone to Luptia Nyong'o for 12 Years a Slave. Can you say, "popular vote"?

MATT: THAT is why I don't watch those things!

JAY: So anything else about my list?

MATT: Obviously, we agreed on American Hustle, Blackfish, The Conjuring, and Short Term 12.

JAY: Yeah. Short Term 12 was one of my absolute favorites of the year. It was so good and hardly got any press.

MATT: That's why Award shows mean dick to me anymore 'cause they overlook the purely fantastic films. I would take one Short Term 12 over 10 Wolf of Wall Streets or American Hustles! Would you say Short Term was your favorite of all?

JAY: Hmmmmm. It's close between that one, Gravity and Her. Now Her did not make my list because I saw it after we posted our list but it would have been on it. I have a review coming shortly. What was your favorite from your list if you had to pick?

MATT: So difficult. It would be between Captain Phillips, Saving Mr. Banks, and The Way, Way Back.

JAY: The only one of those three I haven't seen yet is Saving Mr. Banks.

MATT: Oh! You gotta see it! So good! Even though the end is not historically accurate.

JAY: Both Captain Phillips and The Way, Way Back were good. I've heard about the accuracy. Some people are kind of upset about it.

MATT: Despite that, I think it was really well done and the idea of Travers' past issues resonates well with the story.

JAY: I'll see it soon and let you know what I think. Now comes the part of our discussion where we will devolve into an argument about Man of Steel. Let's try and keep it civil.

MATT: Here we go. What now?

JAY: Well, you wrote about it more than any other film on your list. It almost felt like you were defending it. It's a pretty polarizing movie.

MATT: Oh, no. I simply reposted my original review.

JAY: OK. So, I just to start by saying I do like many things about Man of Steel. I really like the way Snyder shot it. Especially the flashback scenes to his childhood in Smallville.

MATT: Alright, just get on with it and tell me what you didn't like about it.

JAY: Well, there's several things. First, there is absolutely no chemistry between Henry Cavill and Amy Adams. I did not buy them falling in love at all. All of the sudden they are kissing.

MATT: I said from the beginning that I wasn't crazy about Adams' casting.

JAY: Oh, it’s because she's Lois Lane and he's Superman. So they're supposed to fall in love. So let's insert kiss here.

MATT: But we can't really judge chemistry when they didn't have time to have romance. I felt like the kiss should have been pushed back to the sequel. Since this was the start. But that does not put the film's quality in any jeopardy.

JAY: OK, but they didn't do that. So it cheapened the establishment of their relationship. I take from you saying it doesn't do anything to worsen the movie, that the love story between Superman and Lois Lane is not important to the overall story of Superman? For me, it’s one of the most important elements of Superman. It’s arguably the most important comic book love story in the history of the medium.

MATT: And I'll say that even in the first original Superman movie, Superman and Lois Lane abruptly fall for each other also. So, it's nothing that hasn't been done before. All Superman does is save Lois' life and she's willing to drop her panties for him. In Donner's Superman, that is.

JAY: It’s different in the original movie, though, because you have Clark who first meets Lois, not Superman. The relationship's complexity builds from Clark's crush on Lois.

MATT: No. In that movie, to Lois, Clark and Superman are two different people! It's not Clark she falls for. It's Superman!

JAY: Exactly!

MATT: Yes, and she falls for him in Man of Steel just the same! Oh, but wait, just because she figures out he's also Clark, romance ruined!?

JAY: No, no. It's not the same as Man of Steel. The Donner Superman/Lois relationship grew out of a quasi-love triangle between Clark/Superman/Lois. Already, it’s got more levels than anything Snyder's love story had. And it was a main focus Lois and Superman in Man of Steel is an afterthought and comes off as forced.

MATT: But that's not how even Superman is written nowadays. That's the Superman of old when Lois couldn't figure out that a man looked the same with or without glasses, but yet, was also a star investigative reporter!

JAY: BTW, I rewatched Man of Steel the other day to make sure I wasn't crazy.

MATT: Again, you have to remember that the real person is Kal (his Superman persona), and Clark is a disguise. And Man of Steel shows Superman before he took on the Clark Kent persona.

JAY: Maybe, but that doesn't excuse the lack of chemistry and poorly written and developed love story.

MATT: I don't think the love story in the original Superman was as well written as you think it to be. In that movie, Clark starts working at the paper, falls in love with Lois (who treats him like shit), and that's it. Lois is saved by Superman and she instantly falls in love with him. It is only through their fly together that it cements both of their feelings. But she never acknowledges Clark.

JAY: Don't get me wrong, I don't put the Donner Superman on a pedestal. I don't like Margot Kidder as Lois.

MATT: Not many did.

JAY: But I'm trying not to compare Man of Steel to those movies. Just to what I know to be the main points that make the character of Superman.

MATT: The main point of Superman is what I said. He's Kal, not the disguise of Clark.

JAY: Lois is arguably one of the biggest things you have to get right. How can he be Kal when he doesn't even know who that is until he's older and the Kents tell him? He's Clark before he's Kal. Right? The Kents raised him as Clark.

MATT: No, Clark -- as Lois knows him in the earlier comics and in the original Donnor Superman movie -- is a bumbling coward, a disguise (and no, I don’t agree with Tarantino’s Bill monologue in Kill Bill 2 regarding Superman). In those instances, he doesn't act like himself -- how he truly is. The Clark the Kents raised is Kal, not the bumbling coward he pretends to be around Lois and everyone at the Planet.

JAY: I'm not even thinking about the bumbling Christopher Reeves Clark. I came away from this movie still thinking that the Clark the Kents raised is still Clark. A different Clark, but still Clark Kent. He is told about Kal from his father Jor-El when he is a man. He finds about Krypton from him. So much of Superman is about his numerous parental figures and how they raised him. I think the Kents were arguably more important in creating Superman than Jor-El. I didn't get the Kal thing at all. Diane Lane would disagree with you. She raised Clark not Kal.

MATT: What I'm saying is ... Clark is Kal. Their personalities are the same! But when he goes to work for the Planet, he puts on his bumbling personality. And that's the Clark that everyone -- including Lois in the original film -- knows.

JAY: OK, I get that. Hopefully, he doesn't create the bumbling alter-ego.

MATT: That is what we will have to wait and see on. But, unfortunately, he almost has to -- so others won't discover his secret.

JAY: Ok, so back to The Avengers, which by no means do I think is the king of comic book movies, but I do think is better than Man of Steel. Why the hate?

MATT: The Avengers is a popcorn flick -- pure and simple. And there's nothing wrong with that! But it doesn't have the emotional depth or meaning that Man of Steel has. But I can see why. The Avengers is an ensemble film whereas Man of Steel focuses on one. But, again, I enjoyed Man of Steel much more than any of the stand-alone Marvel movies. The only stand-alone Marvel movie that came slightly close was Captain America. But, still not as good.

JAY: OK. For me, The Avengers is served very well by the character development that takes place in the stand-alone movies.

MATT: It's two different animals 'cause the Marvel characters had their stand-alone movies, and Man of Steel is Superman’s stand-alone movie.

JAY: Man of Steel is better than Thor. I'll give you that. That's why I think you can't compare Avengers and Man of Steel, and it surprised me you did.

MATT: Sorry, but also better than Iron Man, The Wolverine, Captain America, Incredible Hulk. 

JAY: Ha, ha. Well we could argue that all night. But not better than the first Iron Man or Captain America. Better than those other two.

MATT: Agree to disagree. Maybe it's not the movie that's better. It's the hero.

JAY: Maybe you're right there and I think you're onto something. We project so much of our love of these characters onto our enjoyment of the movie that we tend to overlook the actual quality of the movie itself.

MATT: I'll just say that Man of Steel was a better film, had better cinematography, a better hero and had better writing than any of the Marvel stand-alone movies ... Iron Man and Captain America included, although those two films were really good.

JAY: Last but not least, I can't forgive Superman for killing thousands of Metropolis citizens. If I lived there, I'd want his ass off the planet pronto!

MATT: OK, Lex Luthor! I think this storyline aspect is going to be of major focus in the sequel. Watch it be a main reason Batman (Affleck) disagrees with Superman. Although, don't forget that Superman is still learning who he is and by the end of the film, his objection to killing is cemented.

JAY: For me, that was a departure on the same level as Joker killing Batman's parents (Tim Burton's Batman) and Norman Osbourne killing Spider-Man's parents (The Amazing Spider-Man). I hope the sequel does address it.

MATT: So when thousands died in The Avengers, you wouldn't want their asses "off the planet?" Or, because The Avengers are government-sanctioned, you'd be OK with it?

JAY: I think it's different. Hundreds of aliens attacked New York, not The Avengers.

MATT: Superman didn't attack Metropolis!

JAY: Zod was attacking Superman, not Metropolis.

MATT: Wrong! He was attacking Metropolis -- with the world-shaping machine. And the aliens in The Avengers were attacking the Avengers!

JAY: If the Avengers left, the aliens mostly wouldn't have followed them.

MATT: In both films, sadly, the people were merely in the way. 

JAY: If Superman left, Zod would follow.

MATT: You don't think the aliens in The Avengers wouldn't have killed people?

JAY: Yes, that's why they had to stay and fight. Also, there was a missile being fired at New York.

MATT: Superman was willing to leave with Zod ... for the people! Until Superman found out Zod was going to kill EVERYONE on earth! And that's why Superman had to stay and fight. The people would have died whether Superman stayed or not!

JAY: After Superman destroyed that world building machine, it was time to take the fight elsewhere. Let's be honest, Snyder wanted to blow shit up. And I'm fine with it, whatever. If that's the new Superman, OK. Oh, and Tom Hiddleston is a much better villain than Michael Shannon. He took a lame character and made him awesome.

MATT: You can't make Zod go away when he knows your weakness and wants to exploit it. Superman’s weakness are the people of Earth. I will, though, give you props for Hiddleston. But won't it be cool if they get Bryan Cranston to play Lex Luthor? That's what I'm hearing.

JAY: Oh yes! Please make that happen! I'll forgive everything!

MATT: "Just blow shit up!?" Oh, you're right. They didn’t do that at all in The Avengers! (*facepalm*) Any more comments about the "Best of" list?

JAY: Yes. Superman is different from the Avengers, though. He represents our highest ideals. Tony Stark does not.

MATT: That's for damn sure. Which is why Superman suffers when there are casualties -- especially thousands. But he has to move on.

JAY: I really want to see TWA Flight 800 after reading your blurb about it.

MATT: OH!!!! YES!!! You have to! It's on Netflix! WATCH IT TONIGHT! If you want to see proof of government fuck-ups and conspiracy (true conspiracy), then watch it.

JAY: I will. I did see Don Jon. I really liked it too. Johansson was hysterical.

MATT: I liked her Jersey accent.

JAY: It was very good, with a great message at its core.

MATT: Yeah. Gordon-Levitt is awesome.

JAY: Some of yours I haven't seen yet. Warm Bodies, Now You See Me, 42.

MATT: I'm surprised you haven't seen Warm Bodies ... you being a big zombie fan and all.

JAY: Yeah, I will soon. Don't know why.

MATT: Now You See Me was my fun pick.

JAY: I thought Star Trek: Into Darkness was OK, but I think I had some of the same problems you did.

MATT: Yeah. Like I said, almost didn't make the list. I couldn't agree more with Pacific Rim, although I knew it would suck, so it really didn't surprise me or disappoint me.

JAY: I had hopes, but they were dashed. I didn't see A Good Day to Die Hard. I avoided it, sorry to say.

MATT: If you love John McClane, and the original Die Hard, don't! You will be disgusted with what they did to the character. He's almost become a cartoon.

JAY: Then I will stay away. I love the first one too much.

MATT: Well, I guess that pretty much wraps it up for 2013!

JAY: I was pretty happy with my list and the films I saw this year. Looking forward to 2014. We should start our Most Anticipated List soon.

MATT: Yes! I liked my list too. I think 2014 will be a really damn good year for movies! And 2015 looks to be better!

JAY: Yes, it does!